When did Egyptian dancers start having a bedlah? The story I heard was that it was Westerners having the harem fantasy, creating the bra/belt set, and having that re-adopted in the Middle East... What have you heard/learned?
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SF Bay Area
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Wed, April 2, 2008 - 2:33 PMThat matches my research. -
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Wed, April 2, 2008 - 3:18 PMDid that happen in the 20s? I'm having trouble placing that in my mental timeline of raqs history. -
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Wed, April 2, 2008 - 4:18 PMThe 20's, yeah. There are antecedents in the Orentalist fantasies and their offshoots, but bedlah (from what I've gathered) is really a creation of Raqs Shaqri, as created by the dancers and owner of the Casino Opera.
Now, as for sources...hmmm. I'd have to do some digging, and I can't dig with me back out. Let me know if you need citations real bad. :) -
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Wed, April 2, 2008 - 6:21 PMIn my timeline, there seemed to be a hop between the 1900s Western Orientalist fantasy women (Mata Hari, et al) and the Badia Masabni Opera Casino. There was something else I found about the Middle Easterners having to conform to the Western fantasy in order to appeal to the tourists -- so yeah, that would have happened somewhere in the 1910s and 1920s.
Woody - I'll have a nice surprise to share with you in a week :)
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Tue, April 8, 2008 - 7:33 AMhmmm what about those pics of the 1893 world's fair dancers ? and the "little egypt" pics? They all ARE wearing something in the middle, but its' definite two-piece look -
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Tue, April 8, 2008 - 8:05 AMI'm not sure where I read this anymore, obviously two piece outfits already existed, but I had heard the glitzy version was actually inspired by the outfits worn by dancers in European cabarets, which the Casino Opera was somewhat modeled after. -
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Tue, April 8, 2008 - 12:15 PMHi Lisa,
The origin of two pieces actually goes back a very long time in Middle/Near East and, I might add Asian culture. First, the belt as an important body adornment (and or as "utilitarian" in purpose as clothing) can be seen even in ancient art work. Carved wooden soldiers dug up from a tomb at the time of Pharaoh Ahmose even show some of the archers carrying their "currency" as trim around their belt. (Also, remember currency/coins have not always been round there were square ones, as in this example). In ancient Asian temples the belt is seen and in all "fertility" or "belly" cultures the navel is exposed because there was nothing seen as wrong with it in these societies. One depiction of "Kali" even shows the body parts of her victims adorning the edge of the belt as this would have represented what was valuable to "Kali," etc.
The top has gone through many changes through the eons, but is essentially the same idea. (Whether a crop top or "choli" to a "vest" to a type of "bra" top). Religious mores that came along much later started to change what we as Arabs would wear in public, but it did not change the fact that these costume ideas were once a part of our culture. I think this is why the immigrants from these countries never questioned "oriental" costumes that looked antiquated because we were doing a very old dance.
If I had to critique or turn "against" the bra top, it would probably be as some bra tops started to look around the eighties in "Modern Egyptian" costumes. The beads seem to be abundant and globbed on rather than there was a design idea that was oriental and the beadwork was thought out to flatter the body, etc.. This may have gone along with even our own "overdone" "prom dress" era in America. Big hair, big dresses, Hee Hee. This would be my least favorite time in costume design and I believe looks less ethnic and less oriental. -
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 9:46 AMI thought the beaded bra/belt was first shown in the 1909 film Salome as a two piece costume. So did Egyptians copy Hollywood or the reverse? -
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 12:47 PMThere was no "Hollywood" originially because early film makers started out very small in NYC area, shooting a lot on Long Island and over in Jersey. And they didn't even reach that point until the late teens and 1920's.
When ethnic performers were brought over to be in the World's Fairs in the 1890's early 20th century, "moving pictures" had just been invented (one way to view these early attempts at movies was to view in a machine called a "nickelodeon.") These foreign performers have a variety of outfits including some that highlight the hips and the upper torso. They also dance with scarves and veils, etc.
The best book I ever saw published with a lot of references to many old pieces of art that show native costumes of many of the related cultures is "Serpent of the Nile: Women and Dance in the Arab World" by Wendy Buonaventura.
I was fortunate to grow up in NYC with a lot of museum references available, but, as I said, the Buonaventura book is a must have for any belly dance enthusiast. -
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 2:00 AMHi there Aziza, do you know the ISBN number for the book?
I have only been dancing for 7 months, and what started out as a pleasant way to keep fit, has fast become an addiction, i want to learn more about the cultural side to the Belly dance, and its History.
Are there any other publications you could recommend please? -
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 6:11 AM"Looking for Little Egypt", Donna Carlton This is an excellent book on the history of our dance since it came to the United States in the late 1800s. Well researched and some wonderful old pictures.
"A Trade Like Any Other - Female Singers and Dancers in Egypt", Karin van Nieuwkerk An excellent book on the cultural ideas and experiences that surround women entertainers in the Middle East. Looks at the historical and current realities and traditions. It is an academic piece of literature which makes it somewhat of a dry read but great information.
These two books are a great place to start.
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 4:46 PMPlease, please, please don't take Serpent of the Nile as historically accurate. It has reproductions of a lot of Orientalist art but a lot of the paintings and images are fantasy, and Buonaventura doesn't distinguish between "fantasy" and "was definitely painted from life on the spot". You can't tell from looking either. The whole book suffers from a little too much fantasy. Curt Sach's work on an evolutionary model of dance development is extremely old fashioned and has been challenged extensively for a long time. There is no proof that everyone in the whole world everywhere belly danced till evil Judao-Christianity stamped it out, and assuming all pelvic dances are the same ignores cultural, social and historical elements.
It's a pretty book and has some nice soothing ideas about belly dancing being all noble and lovely and woman-centred, but it's got to be taken with a pinch of salt.
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Tue, April 29, 2008 - 12:59 PMRegarding Serpent of the Nile, I need to comment that it has some great pictures, but I have issues with a lot of its "historical" statements. So I actually DO NOT recommend that book to people who are just starting to learn about belly dance history. I prefer to treat it as a great book for people who enjoy browsing through photos.
Shems mentioned the books that are my favorite historical resources - Looking for Little Egypt and A Trade Like Any Other.
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Thu, April 24, 2008 - 4:52 PMI think you're confusing "film" with opera, play and theatrical performance. Apparently there were some Salome-themed shorts made in the US between 1907 and 1909, but the image you're probably thinking of is Maud Allen in Visions of Salome (theatre performance) in what looks very much like a bedleh. Women dressing up as "exotic" temptresses dripping in arcane jewels and a few veils was rife in the late 19th/early 20th centuries in England and NOrth America. They didn't call it "Salomania" for nothing.
I personally stand somewhere between "it was an adaptation of Indian dancing girls' costumes, which the British Empire chappies liked and asked for" (which I think is Leona Lewis' view) and "it was a natural development out of what dancers were already wearing in the late 19th century (like those World's Fair dancers of whom we have photos). -
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Fri, April 25, 2008 - 10:55 AMHi to Cucumber!
I don't have the ISBN with me today, but I'll try to get it. I reccomend the Buonaventura book as a belly dancer and an Arab/Armenian. The book is excellant because she's gathered art from many periods in time (and of course, some by Middle Eastern/Near Eastern Artists). I am actually reading three more books on costuming and adornment from antiquity at the moment ironically. They are excellent with museum references. I'll try to get those ISBNs as well and send them your way.
There are a lot erroneous ideas put forth in today's world that has turned belly dance into a feminist protest. It's really not. It's based on nature, the life cycle, family celebration. (In fact, the first "veil and snake" dancers were from Ancient peoples and had nothing to do with Islam as it predated that time. I'm bringing that up because a dancer of great repute has introduced the idea to young dancers now that they are "phony" if they want to dance with a veil-two piece bedlah concept/idea is just a "harem fantasy." Truth is this dancer never really liked dancing with a veil-just a lot of crap dished out.
"Debunking" culture on internet is rampant. Trying to disrespect the accomplishments of people in the past. I'm bringing this up because the first hint of a "debunking" culture appeared in Dance magazine in the 60's when a writer implied she "thought" that there might not have been a "Little Egypt" at the World's Fair, etc. My Mother Johanna said something to the effect of, "Well, look how many places a dancer performs and it never makes the local paper!" This from a woman with trunkloads of newspaper writeups about herself (nightclubs and show biz had more press then in the "heyday"), yet she told me about how many times she had performed somewhere and it wasn't in the paper.
The point is, throughout this entire region there has been belly culture, dancing with veils, scarves, snakes, cymbals, some kind of clackers (forerunners of castenets/spoons "Kashik") and Bendirs/Riqs, etc. (And of course, different types of pants, hip accents either with an upper torso accent or not, etc. etc.)
Enjoy looking through the references and try not to get caught up in protests that are not based on fact! -
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 4:16 PMThank you Aziza, that would be helpfull. -
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Sat, May 3, 2008 - 8:32 AMThanks, Lola. Actually, what is seen in "The Serpent of the Nile" is only a "sampling" of the info available to us. Resources from a "variety" of artists through the ages is available simply by making trips to museums, reading and comparing many books. Everyone should look up everything. But, when people are digging up sarcophigi and finding belted figures, viewing cave paintings, examining old ceramic tile art, etc (From hundreds and thousands of years ago) I don't understand the whole debate over the origin of the "Bedlah."
However, I just happened to recommend the Serpent book based on my knowledge of my Middle/Near Eastern heritage. I liked her work and knew it was available. Also know that there were many other types of garments worn while dancing with flowing veils, skirts, etc. They were not always belted, etc.
Holly wood did not come into being until after the late "teens" early 20's of the last century.
There are plenty of dancers at the World's Fairs of the 1890's early twentieth century with a beaded top/or vest and hip belt. (In olden days the belt was really referred to as a "girdle."
Other books that are "old" that I just found through my local library and are very nice:
"Ancient Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Persian Costume" and "Ancient Greek, Roman and Byzantine Costume and Decoration" (Copyright 1920/'54 and 1931/'59, respectively) both by Mary G. Houston. (Detailed photos and drawings with massive museum references for each item shown. Items are from the collections of museums all over the world.)
"Costume in Antiquity" by Erhard Klepper, 1963/64.
Just have fun with it. That's what belly dancing is supposed to be! -
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 11:27 AMTheda Bara's portrayal of Salome and Cleopatra in the movies occurred around 1908 and 1910.
Sadly, these moves are lost to us because a fire at Fox Studios in 1937 destroyed the only known existing prints of many of the early movies, including those.
When talking about the origins of bedleh, it's helpful to first define what we mean by "bedleh". You seem to be defining it as "wearing some kind of hipband to accent the moves". I define it as "lavishly decorated bra-like garment and matching hipband, with bare midriff". I can see your point behind your definition, and when having a discussion like this it's useful to understand where each of us is coming from.
By my definition, and according to my research, bedleh originated somewhere between 1894 (when Oscar Wilde's play Salome was published) and 1906 (when Maud Allen performed her Vision of Salome dance show for the first time in a very bedleh-esque costume). This did pre-date any Hollywood portrayals of bedleh that I've been able to find, though Hollywood probably helped spread the expectation /fantasy of Western audiences more widely.
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 7:15 PMThe Library of Congress has clips from the very first moving pictures made in the 1890s. Several of them are bellydancers, Princess Ali, Turkish Dancer Ella Lola, Princess Rajah who dances with a chair in her teeth, and a couple of dancers with "Butterfly wings", which resemble today's Isis wings.
All of these dancers have covered tummys. Princess Rajah wears a beaded top, but Princess Ali is wearing strictly ethnic clothing. Ella Lola is wearing what appears to be a bib-like coin necklace over a full top and short full skirt that reaches just below the knee.
Several years ago I was at an art museum exhibit of the Treasures of Ur. Among them were a beautiful gold belt and headpiece. They were not made of coins, but gold leaves. Gorgeous! But, this was not dancing gear, it was the Queens burial clothing! -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: bedlah origin myth
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 10:50 AMButterfly wings lady is not oriental. It's Loie Fuller an early "modern" dancer in the craze around the time it was fluid looking-Isadora Duncan era-pre-Martha Graham "angular" looking "modern."
Victorian society would have never allowed revealed torsos-it was surprising enough to them as it was. (Incidentally, the Greeks in Greektown used to pick up a table with their teeth-the way Princess Rajah does with her chair!). The clips you mention are great. Fatima is nice as well. There are lots of dancers at these expositions who got photographed at their pavillions who may not have been filmed with the moving picture camera. These are interesting to look at as well. -
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Re: bedlah origin myth
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 10:54 AMPrince Obeid Turjoman of Saudi Arabia, a close friend of my mother and father, taught my mother the sword dance "Al Ard" which I do today in one of my Arabic acts. (The Prince even accompanied her on Oud at a banquet he threw in her honor for the Saudi students association).
King David played a musical instrument and wrote songs.
Even royalty sings and dances in our culture!
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